I recently came across this site and I noticed there was some brief discussion on a couple of books I wrote. ("The Jazz Style of Tal Farlow" and "The Motivic Basis for Jazz Guitar Improvisation") If anyone is interested in further discussing with me the concepts in the books... or my experiences performing with, and countless hours spent hanging and talking about jazz improvisation with Tal, Jimmy Raney, Attila Zoller, etc.... also any questions about what I've been teaching at Berklee for the past twenty years, I'd love to hear from you. I can be contacted at srochinski@berklee.edu.
All the best.
Steve Rochinski

To Bruce Forman: I've enjoyed your music over these many years. If and when you come Boston, please contact me. I'd love to meet you and hang a bit. (By the way, this site is a great idea and has inspired me to develop something along these lines.) Stay well.
Steve Rochinski

By Chris Flynn on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 01:15 pm:

Bruce my College music teacher has asked me to find out about Spanish Scales. This is for use in the piece called "Volero".

So can you please give me some thought on how to play spanish scales?

Is there a certain scale?

Please get back to me, and thanks a lot.

CHRIS FLYNN

By Bruce Forman on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 01:17 pm:

In terms of 'Spanish Scales' the only one that comes to mind is the phyrgian mode (which is a major scale based off the third: E in the key of C. It is often used against the typical 'flamenco' cadence: E/F/G/F/E with the E chords either minor or major triads, or even seventh chords. In the case of the E major or dominant, I generally add a G# to it...that is, when I play off scales, which I try not to do. You see, while scales are important and a great way to learn both your axe and music, I have often found them to be of little use when playing. They are groups of notes that are usaually played evenly, unlike a melody and the notes go from strong to weak (but still within the key or chordal sound) and have minimal melodic qualities in terms of tension-release. I think it is often more rewarding to play off the melody, use arpeggiated fragments, and appogitura: circling the important chord tones; that way you
play with passing tones and the intent of your phrases have focus and lead the listeners ears to the desired place.

However, in terms of your original question, I'm sure there are many scales, there are probably even books on the subject, check them out and you decide what's best. Good Luck!

By Rich Fazio on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 09:11 pm:

Hi all - first time poster to Bruce's discussion group. I have a couple of questions on the theory side of things maybe some of you could help me with.

First I just read where Bruce said that he didn't find as much value in scales as he does in arpeggios and "appogitura". I've never heard this term appogitura, can someone define it and explain what is meant by "circling the important chord tones" as Bruce has stated.

Secondly, I've seen a video by the late great Joe Pass where he answered some questions from some students at a clinc. Great video by the way if you enjoy Joe and his music, it's called "An evening with Joe Pass by REH publications". Anyway, Joe answered a students question about soloing over iim7-V7-IMaj7 progressions by saying he disregarded the ii in a ii-V and just played a V - I.(This is close to his exact quote in the video) "throw out the ii chord, you don't need it" so essentially Joe viewed a ii-V-I as a V-I. Is this something that more experienced players do?

What if the V is altered say G7#5b9 or something, could you use the super Locrian mode over the ii-V part of the progression and then resolve to the parent scale of the I chord, in this case say a C Major scale?

Does this same thing hold true for minor iim7b5 - V7alt - im progresssions?

I hope this first time post is clear and not too long.

Any one familiar with Bruce's video? Does it explain his use of arppegios and "chord tone encirclement"?

Thanks all in advance for any advice

Rich

By Jimmy on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 06:39 am:

Hi Rich, I'm sure more experienced posters can expand on the therory, but my basic understanding is if you compare the notes in a ii chord and the V, there are not too many differences.The ii is basically the V sus(with the 4). The harmonic motion is the resolution to I.
As far as soloing over altered chords, I think many of the greats still view it as a five chord. Because Joe Pass says he views the ii V as just V does not means he solos through the V chord "as is" . He plays tri tone subs and other chord substitutions for that V chord. I really think the "scale" view of jazz is overated. I think many of the greats, Wes, Pass, Bird,Farlow and others play chord tones and substitutions with aprroach notes and passing tones, I do not think they practiced super locrian scales. Well thats my 2 cents !
Jim

By Rich Fazio on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 01:22 pm:

I agree with you as far as the scale view of jazz is concerned. Tal Farlow apparently didn't practice scales at all, same with Jimmy Raney or so I've heard from other people.

And your analysis of the ii-V sounds exactly like I read in a book on Tal Farlow. There is a book written by Steve Rochinski called "The Jazz Style of Tal Farlow - Elements of Bebop Guitar" which explains that exact view of the V chord being a Vsus. This book takes a pretty detailed look at Tal's playing off of a couple of chord shapes.

But I still am going through the process of trying to internalize the melodic minor scale and make music with it. The only other scales I know cold are the major and the blues scales.

Seems like an approach that doesn't sound like music at all. Maybe I should chuck it and go for learning in some different way. Possibly I'll just go for trying to learn things out of that Tal Farlow book, which I haven't really used much.


If you have any other suggestions Jimmy they'd be welcome.

Thanks,
Rich

By Al on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 05:30 pm:

Hi Rich

If you play a V7#5b9 going to I, I would say that you can use the superlocrian scale since it has the right tension notes.

If you're playing IIm7b5-V7alt.-I I would play locrian natural 2nd (or 6th degree of the melodic minor scale)-superlocrian-major/lydian.

Theoretically speaking, a IIm7b5 is a non-diatonic chord (in dorian you don't have a b5). If you would play locrian you've got a b9, which dorian also doesn't have. The only note that has to change no matter how I look at it is the 6(13) which in dorian is a major6 and over a IIm7b5 is usually a minor6 (b13). If you wouldn't do that you'd get a strange scale that would be 1-2-b3-4-b5-13-7-1 and would have a b3 interval between the 5th and 6th degree. That would be a scale that is neither derived from the major scale, nor from melodic or harmonic minor.

This is just my point of view. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Al

By Rich Fazio on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 09:27 pm:

That's the way I guess alot of players approach it from a modal point of view. The 6th mode of the melodic minor is used alot over the iim7b5 for the minor 2-5-1.

In the previous post I meant to say that the ii chord can be viewed as a Vsus as Jimmy had said.

Any view Al on what Jimmy said in the previous post about the "scale" view of jazz. I'm sure he is right when he says that alot of the older generation players didn't practice the super locrian (7th mode) of the melodic minor scale.

Rich

By Jimmy on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:52 am:

I would like to keep this post alive, I am intersted in Bruce's comments. Lately I have been VERY frustrated practicing. I have not developed a method of practicing which allows me to work on arpeggios and approach notes while playing through changes. I basically just mechanically go from low E to High E up and down the neck in the cycle of 4ths. Not very song or music oriented. It also does not help me when I solo and I am starting on different strings. Anyone have any ideas or patterns they work on?

By rich fazio on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 01:33 pm:

I know Jody Fisher's second book in his series has some arppegio exercises where he approaches chord tones from 1/2 step away and from whole steps and chromatically. I haven't yet gotten to his exercises due to the fact that I'm still memorizing some arpeggio patterns.

I posted a question the other day about using appogiatura (i'm sure i spelled that wrong). In a 2-5-1 and was hoping someone would come up with some suggestions.

Its too bad Bruce doesn't offer online lessons (for a fee). Seems he would have some great lessons and anyalysis for improvisation. Frank Vignola has a site where he offers lessons in .PDF format along with .MP3 files you can download. Haven't found much of interest on his site though.

By Tony Calabro on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 05:15 pm:

Hi Jimmy,
Practicing can be frustrating, but not if you look at the big picture and all the benefit and joy it's going to give you as you improve your skills.
Now re practice, naturally a good teacher is a must,one that can not only guide you but also encourage you when you're down. Go to the best,not the cheapest.
What to practice is always "THE QUESTION" and although scales and arpeggios are great and should be practiced, some students ignore other important factors,like learning the basic melody to lots of tunes and the basic chords. This gives you a good foundation to build on where later you can use your scales and arpeggios and make music not just fast runs that you've praticed that go no where. So first up learn a tune a day (or a week)melody first chords second,be sure you can memorise it. Know what are the valuable tunes. Standards like Autumn leaves,Here's that Rainy Day, Foggy Day, Wave,etc...etc....
Secondly,learn heaps of chords up and down the neck and study chord substitution thoroughly because ultimately you are going to solo over these shapes and it will give you a clearer picture of what is going on and many times just playing over the chord shapes not only gives you great lines but also states the changes more clearly. All this takes time,daily practice,constant review to retain info,and above all "PATIENCE", but man it will pay great dividends.
Thirdly, when you practice scales or arpeggios try to compose musical ideas,memorise the ones you think sound cool and try to use them in little jam sessions, even if you put a chord pattern down on you tape recorder.

Hang in there it's worth it. I'd like to add that it's important to be versatile too. Practice your reading as well as your ear playing.

Hope this gives you something to think about.

Maybe even write a plan down like: 10 mins warm up with scales and arpeggios, 30 mins to learn your first tune(melody and chords)SHORT BREAK. Then 30 mins sight reading(short break) then 30 mins learnig new chords etc.....Naturally I don't mean to stick to this format,but make your own plan up so that you have a goal to work with and for.

Best,

Tony.

By Tony Calabro on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 05:30 pm:

G'day Rich,
Re your question about appoggiatura. These are those small notes you often see on the music page next to a larger note and are performed like slurred notes by putting in vibration the little note with the right hand and by producing the principal note by the pressure of the left hand.

So I think when this point was first mentioned re improvising it was intended as a way of expressing an idea for example if you're soloing on a G7 your principal notes are G,B,D,F so you could use an appoggiatura, say, beginning with Bb hammering onto B natural etc....

Hope this helps.

Ciao,

Tony.

By Al on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:31 pm:

Hi Jimmy

Always remember that if you hit a wrong note the right one, either up or down, is only one half step away.

In terms of arp's there are tree patterns that I usually use.

a) I hit the root on the first string, the 3rd the 5th on the second, the 7th on the third etc.

b) I hit the root on the frist string, 3rd on the second, and 5th and 7th on the third string etc.

c) I hit the root and the 3rd on the first string, the 5th on the second, the 7th on the third etc.

To play them in cycles of 4th's it's usually the easiest way to do it. Try instead to play it also in cycles of 2nd's, as if you'd play their relative scale i.e if you're in C = Cmaj7 arp, Dm7 arp, etc., it's harder to do, but you'll have to use all the different patterns mixed together and this will help you connecting different arp's later.
To get used to the different fingerings I think it's good to play these arp's form each degree in different scales (major, melodic minor etc.)

It's also a good idea to play them in the opposite direction, i.e starting on the high string and going down, which on the guitar is harder to do, especially for the right hand, but it's a good exercise.

Like Tony said, be patient and give yourself some time, the results will come.

Al

By Jimmy on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:53 am:

Thanks Al and Tony, I must be on the right track because I sort of already do what you suggested. Just sometimes it doesn not feel like it sinks in. It's great to receive support from people you do not even know. The internet is a great thing !

By Jim Fisk on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 02:29 pm:

The following comments might stir things up a bit, but...

I'm 49 years old and have been hacking around with jazz guitar since I was 18 years old. Before that I played blues for several years. I studied jazz and music theory with obsessive drive in college (both local and university levels), on my own, and with private instructors. I have also taught jazz and guitar on and off for years. In other words, I have approached this thing called jazz from an academic angle and do have tons-o-knowledge.

That said, if an aspiring jazz musician were to ask me what I feel is the most important thing to focus on for development, I have a simple answer: play, play, play. By this I mean, play along with recordings of master musicians on your instrument as well as other recognized masters. Transcribe and absorb Wes, Kenny Burrell, Ed Bickert, Bruce Forman, Pat Martino, Charlie Christian, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Miles, Coltrane, Bud Powell, Bill Evans, etc., etc., etc. And, play with other musicians as soon as possible, jam on standards.

I wish I had done this in the very beginning instead of acquiring all this wonderful theory. Scales are ingredients but not final product. When playing a gig, I often find myself playing lines and chords that sound cool to me, but I could not always tell you what scale or substitutions I was using, it just sounded good.

Of course, I practice "power tones" (3rds & 7ths) through changes, and explore chordal usage over tunes, and on and on, but getting to the essence of SOUND is what I would like to achieve. I did spend billions (Carl Sagan) of hours developing an extensive chord vocabulary, as well as memorize several scales in all keys, so there is no way around some of that stuff. However, I wish I had spent all my efforts playing along with Wes and then later figure out what it was I was playing.

By no means am I a great guitarist, and theory is fun and important, however, I would suggest to anyone trying to learn jazz guitar...just play, play, play. As Frank Zappa so eloquently offered some solid advice I should have followed, "Shut Up 'N' Play Yer Guitar".

Jim

By Rich Fazio on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:26 pm:

So that's the secret. Transcribe, transcribe and transcribe some more. That's what I've been doing. Unfortunately I'm not a good enough musician to right them out, I just learn by ear. I just learned Wes's solo on Billies' Bounce. It actually sounds like I'm playing jazz. I have transcribed some of Barney Kessels' stuff also but I forgot the solos when I got involved in doing other book exercises. So now I keep practicing them everyday to make sure I don't forget them.

I'm also focusing on just one form for now, the blues. My current project is a solo by Mundelle Lowe on C-Jam blues with Andre Previn on Keys and Ray Brown on Bass.

At the end of practice session I'm trying to get the fingerings for the melodic minor and the half-diminished arpeggios under my fingers.

I'll take that bit of advice and run with it Jim.

Thanks for the input

By Al on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:05 pm:

Hi guys

Transcribing is a good thing. What I usually do is not to transcribe a whole solo but the bars or phrases that I really like.
It doesn't make sense to me to transcribe a 3 minute solo just for the sake of transcribing when only 20 seconds of it really catch my ear. Not to say that the rest isn't 'good', but each one of us has a different picture in his head so I go for that picture as direct as possible.

I have a book where I write it down and name it so that I also know what it's been later.

To Jimmy, just play it long enough and it will sink in. Sometimes it takes a little longer, but then suddenly it's there, often when you even don't think about it.
What really matters is that you concentrate on it and don't let yourself distract if it doesn't work immediately. Better 15 minutes a day with real focus on what you're doing than 2 hours fiddling around things you already know.

Al

By Jimmy on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 06:26 am:

Hi guys, I am 31 yrs old. I have been playing religiously for 16 years. In my early 20's I was playing Hendirx solos beind my back at local clubs. I was a metal head, BUT I listened religiously to many of the late 60's guys like Beck and Clapton. I became emmersed in the blues and studied theroy and scales. Playing a guitar with distortion I concentrated on long legato lines. Most people who heard my playing said I was a very good jazz guitar player. I have to admit, I was cocky. My rude awakening came after I decided to learn play jazz seriously. a friend loaned me a Jame Abersold, Miles Davis play along. I looked at the chords and tryed to play through "Four". I choked. I sounded like hell. That was over 6 years ago. I have broken down all that I have learned and tryed to relearn the guitar. This has led me down the road of swing, western swing, honky tonk, more blues, bop, hard bop, free. I never realized how clueless I really was about the guitar.I not only became a hardcore jazz fan, I also discovered other guitar greats like Les Paul and the great Jimmy Bryant (with Speedy West). I was spurred on by a teached who was also a record collector and music teacher.
I appreciate all of your practice reccomendations. I spend a lot of time transcribing and I am in the process of learning Joe Pass' solo on Night an Day. I ananlyze what he plays and most of the time I understand it. Once I go to play I still think I sound terrible. I do not think I am even at the "bad jazz level"
I will keep the faith. And I will keep practicing.

By Jim Fisk on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:52 am:

This is great stuff guys, (and gals?).

Jimmy, you made me laugh out loud when you described your "fun" with the Jamey Aebersold CD with Miles' "Four". I had the same experience on that tune. Playing the head was not extremely difficult, but at his tempo I completely melted down when I first tried to play a meaningful solo! Whew! I like your mention of Jimmy Bryant and Les Paul, they played some tasty stuff.

As is common knowledge, when Wes started out he learned Charlie Christian solos note-for-note. As a matter of fact, when he first got on the bandstand, that was all he could play, but people liked it so much he "got the gig". Also, he didn't read music and claimed he didn't know the theory behind what he played. I suspect he gathered knowledge as the years went by, especially due to the company he kept.

Similarly, Pat Martino developed his "theories" to fit what he was already playing. Check out how he uses dimished chord and minor references as a foundation to his amazing stuff. The fact is, both of these icons were blessed with superior ears, most likely developed with diligent work.

Of course, there are plenty of other jazz musicians who have great ears and a wealth of education. I do not advocate jazz cats forego learning the theory stuff, but music is an aural experience. Also, I don't advocate that we rigidly transcribe every note and comitt it to paper, although preserving on manuscript paper has helped me not totally lose stuff I worked hard to figure out. I do know how I feel after playing along with Wes or Pat Martino...I get inspired and absorb their "vibe". I don't necessarily want to play their lines, but I learn a lot about phrasing as well as note choices. On one Pat Martino solo I transcribed he actually opens with a Major 7th note on a Dominant 7th chord. It sounds so deliciously out and purposeful, but who knows?

Lorne Lofsky talks about how he spent countless hours 'transcribing' Ed Bickert, and the results support his efforts. Is everyone aware of Lorne's playing? He's a wonderful Canadian jazz guitarist.

I am eager to hear from Bruce Forman to learn about his early days of development. Did he spend hours playing along to recordings? Bruce is one guy that successfully combines serious bebop lines with tasteful blues elements. His warmth and humor is always there too.

Sorry for the diatribe. It is rewarding, though, to hear from other people on the same path.

Jim

By Bruce Forman on Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:26 pm:

Glad to see you have all been busy while I was dealing with computer trouble. Thanks for all of your input. In terms of where this conversation has ended up, yes, I believe jazz is a language, therefore, it MUST be approached that way. Sure, scales are cool and neccessary for development of an instrumentalist, however, the vocabulary of the language (transcribing is the only way to do this, fragments or total solos) nuance and meaning are what carry expression. That is what brings most people to jazz and what makes most of us dedicate endless hours to exploration and practice. Like you did with your family and peers, copy what you hear and give it your own personal touch. That, to me, is the art of jazz. Trust your ear, but always question your choices, it will lead to more expansion, a greater palette of colors and most importantly a more rewarding musical experience. Most of all, don't get discouraged, it is hard to get an objective take on your own progress. Trust me, two hours of practice gives twice as much benefit as one. My credo: Everything is simple, it just ain't easy.

By Ned Boynton on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 12:50 am:

I had a teacher once who told me that theory was a
great way to describe what just happened. Doesn't
really give you the insight to the head space that
one needs to create new ideas. Not that it isn't
necessary but that it isnt sufficent to simply
know the theory. When I got out of the Berklee
College I was excellent at theoretical constructs
but lousey at implimentation. It took playing in
a mexican polka band for 6 hours a day for two
years before it hit me: you gotta hear it first.

By Rich Fazio on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 10:36 am:

I think you are dead right about that. You gotta hear it. Parker and Lester Young and all the jazz greats from the past heard it like Bruce says in the message above from transcribing or copying things they liked. Just as a baby or young child learns to talk first by copying the sounds he hears around him/her, before he is taught anything about grammar or the "rules" of language.

I think jazz education has been focused way too much on this overly theoretical approach of what scale goes with what chord. When I listen to Parker or Hank Mobley or Jim Hall etc... I almost never hear anything that sounds like a scale in their improvisations.

By the way, you gotta hear Bruce's CD DEDICATION, it's terriffic.

By Bruce Forman on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 01:37 pm:

Wow! Great dialogue. To answer the questions re: appogiatura...it simply is the case of circling a chord or melodic tone. A great way to practice this is take a given chord, play it with a groove or in a call and answer sort of framework and play fills that circle the triad at first. Ex: D minor: C C# E Eb D or extend it C C# E Eb C# D
Do this with the third and fifth too. You'll discover many of the cliche bop phrases: C Bb G G# A...sound familiar. Use chromatic circling, diatonic and parallel to expand the pallette of colors at your disposal. Thinking is often difficult in playing situations so try to view it as a game plan that you might or might not referto depending on what is transpiring in a given situation. More imporatantly, you need to listen to the Masters to get an idea of the construction of phrases, and I think that rhythm, dynamics, and architecture are far more important than the note content. Get an idea of the shape of a phrase first, as if you were a drummer or mumbling, then fill in the notes. In my experience, the students that had the idea of what they wanted to do and then merely set upon the task of filling in the blanks had the most success. Check it out! Bruce